IAHM-COL and JWocky Banned from the forum

[IAHM-COL]

http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=27457

[jwocky]

I mean, honestly, if it wouldn't be so bad for FG, it would be funny. A bunch of self-declared wannabe-rulers know no other way to deal with two dissidents than by banning and thus by showing, FG is no free project. The four freedoms as described by Richard Stallmann include that the user decides how to use a software, not the developer. After this ban and additionally stressed out by the manifesto posted on the forum over there, it is now clear, the devs decide. No third party if not behind closed doors nodded off, the only way to use FG is with FGADDON. Thus FG doesn't comply anymore to the definition of free software.

Curt has more than ever proven to be a weak leader in any situation in which he is challenged and his only way to get out of it was to send out his little helpers to delete posts and ban people.
And then I see the posts of a few, who agree with his decision. Well, the list is funny. Because those are people who pretended their work on planes would be GPL but not GPL. If you publish something as GPL everybody can take it, expand on it and distribute it. So there is suddenly this new "understanding" in FG, that if some people publish as GPL, but nobody and especially not FGMEMBERS is allowed to expand on it or to redistribute it. Now how is that for "new speak"? SkyOps CRJ is a typical case. Once the CRJs came as GPL to FGADDON, the dam was broken, they were GPL. Still he complains on the dev-list about "taken from FGADDON" and that FGMEMBERS allegedly changed his license. Nope, SkyOps did, he put his work as GPL to FGADDON. FGMEMBERS didn't change a thing on the license. But then political expedience trumps truth every day at FG now.
So bottom line: We have a free speech forum here. If a thing like that would happen here (there are a lot of reasons it will never, but just for the sake of the argument) I wouldn't ban. I wouldn't even delete posts. Maybe, I would *-out some f-words. But I wouldn't delete posts from the other side neither or ban someone in a conflict like that. For the simple reason, despite where my opinion lies, and I have the freedom to express my opinions in posts of my own, as far as it goes to moderator functions, I am a moderator and a board admin here and with that comes the commitment to remain neutral as far as the use of those functions goes.

So, what happens now? Well, others who will dissident for this or that reason will face over there an increasing degree of political "prosecution". Bans, deleted posts, those are now the official consequences there if one shows a lack of hive thinking. The biggest MP event, the USA Tour will more or less leave from there because it is not maintainable anymore. No worries, it found a place here. Flying ... well, for me personally, it was often more about tinkering on planes. Admittedly, I am thinking about that now. Since there is another thing coming up, download fees as an obvious attempt to make money with FG, who wants to put hours on end for free into making the self-declared rulers some $$$. So, I have to figure out some things for myself and currently, I am a little busy with a lot of other things, so give me a few days.

And then, we have of course "the German subject". Germans hate to be reminded of the Third Rich and admittedly it wasn't one of the best moments in German history. I was accused of being especially fond of this period of time. Obviously, it proves, that a lot of Germans are still ready to watch and even actively support Führers. So it is not about what our ancestors did in the past ... what makes some German members on that board especially upset is, that they were caught doing exactly the same thing, only on a smaller level. I refuse to follow this good old German tradition and thus, it was maybe a good thing, I abandoned my German citizenship when I became American. One can say a lot about my fellow Americans, but one thing is for sure, they would never let go of some fundamental freedoms as easily as I saw from some Germans over at the FG forum. Because one thing, history teaches us about letting dictators become powerful is, they never back off. So the next dissident will be probably banned faster. More posts will disappear. The harassment as shown on Server 12 will become more frequent. So what those brave Germans criticizing me on the board for quoting the Third Rich (or rather a poem about it) forgot is, they can be the next ones. And therefore the poem makes once more total sense:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

In FG, it translates to

First they came for a thrid party repository and you did not speak out -
because you didn't operate a repository

Then they came for those pointing out bugs -

... and so on, I leave the rest to your imagination.

So, however one sees it, it is a shameful affair, but at least, Israel and me are two of the very few, who came out of it without shame. We stood for our principles, we told the truth, we served users and we didn't force anybody to use software in another way than they wanted. And those who did the shameful actions are anyway beyond feeling it, I assume.

Jabberwocky

[legoboyvdlp]

"So, however one sees it, it is a shameful affair, but at least, Israel and me are two of the very few, who came out of it without shame. We stood for our principles, we told the truth, we served users and we didn't force anybody to use software in another way than they wanted. And those who did the shameful actions are anyway beyond feeling it, I assume."

+99999999.

[MIG29pilot]

Woooowww... Amazing just how much two or three chaps can misconstrue, misrepresent, twist, distort, and downright act like a whole crowd of schoolgirls.

Now now, you said you wouldn't ban.

[IAHM-COL]

yup. Having your own opinion does not make you ban-deserving.

We need other opinions as well. There can't be progress and directions in the monologue.

So. We welcome your disagreement, and welcome you to the free speech forum

[MIG29pilot]

An odd statement for the chap(s) doing the monologue.

You guys have completely missed the point.

There is quite some difference between censorship and removing ad hominem attacks (attacks on a persons character). Those have to be removed, and I can not take any other notion seriously.
• There is also quite a difference between stifling free speech and maintaining order by keeping out people disturbing the peace.

Now if you two hadn't been proposing truckloads of "conspiracy theories" and dragging everyone who had a different opinion than you did, you'de still be part of the forum. But no, you must violently and acidly tell the whole forum that you are right and that everyone else, (especially moderators who for the sake of peace and order remove some of your more aggressive posts,) is totalitarian, weak, and in complete control. Without any good proof.

[IAHM-COL]

let me ask you for clarity purposes

You are calling Bugman, Thorsten and curt, "three schoogirls?"

[MIG29pilot]

I'm calling everyone who shouted loudest and hardest in these recent, disgraceful debates a crowd of schoolgirls.

[MIG29pilot]

I mean, honestly, if it wouldn't be so bad for FG, it would be funny.

Worse for FG to have your shouting matches

A bunch of self-declared wannabe-rulers know no other way to deal with two dissidents than by banning and thus by showing, FG is no free project. The four freedoms as described by Richard Stallmann include that the user decides how to use a software, not the developer. After this ban and additionally stressed out by the manifesto posted on the forum over there, it is now clear, the devs decide. No third party if not behind closed doors nodded off, the only way to use FG is with FGADDON. Thus FG doesn't comply anymore to the definition of free software.

This isn't about how the software is used-it's about you two disturbing the general peace and hurling insults and accusations at all and sundry.

Curt has more than ever proven to be a weak leader in any situation in which he is challenged and his only way to get out of it was to send out his little helpers to delete posts and ban people.

He wasn't even challenged-he wasn't involved in the debate till the ban. And he was doing the ban.

So, what happens now? Well, others who will dissident for this or that reason will face over there an increasing degree of political "prosecution". Bans, deleted posts, those are now the official consequences there if one shows a lack of hive thinking. The biggest MP event, the USA Tour will more or less leave from there because it is not maintainable anymore.

Not unless they dissent in a similar form to the Bolshevik revolution.

And then, we have of course "the German subject". Germans hate to be reminded of the Third Rich and admittedly it wasn't one of the best moments in German history. I was accused of being especially fond of this period of time. Obviously, it proves, that a lot of Germans are still ready to watch and even actively support Führers. So it is not about what our ancestors did in the past ... what makes some German members on that board especially upset is, that they were caught doing exactly the same thing, only on a smaller level. I refuse to follow this good old German tradition and thus, it was maybe a good thing, I abandoned my German citizenship when I became American. One can say a lot about my fellow Americans, but one thing is for sure, they would never let go of some fundamental freedoms as easily as I saw from some Germans over at the FG forum. Because one thing, history teaches us about letting dictators become powerful is, they never back off. So the next dissident will be probably banned faster. More posts will disappear. The harassment as shown on Server 12 will become more frequent. So what those brave Germans criticizing me on the board for quoting the Third Rich (or rather a poem about it) forgot is, they can be the next ones.

What the...There aren't any German mods.

So, however one sees it, it is a shameful affair, but at least, Israel and me are two of the very few, who came out of it without shame.

I agree. A very disgraceful Affair. And you didn't come out with shame because you don't have any sense of it.

We stood for our principles,

Like the rock of Gibraltar

we told the truth,

Like an artillery barrage

[jwocky]

Well, you proved my points, all of them. But then, given your age, I assume you are only that convinced because your mighty ruler told you to be upset. So, since youth is definitively no shame, no blame on you for parroting all the lies and twists from over there. However, you should look at your last post. Do you really blame me for telling the truth? What do you suggest instead? Political convenient lies? Obviously, that is what you got from your leaders and you swallowed it like honey. What does that say about you?