When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Talk about flying in real life
User avatar
it0uchpods
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:47 am
Location: A far corner of my room.

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby it0uchpods » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:54 pm

Lol
Now that takes the cake.

Boeing and Airbus are just as good and safe as each other, they just have different philosophy. If either was unsafe, it wouldn't be certified still. Don't be a fanboy, those people are irritating.

Kind Regards,
Josh
it0uchpods/WTF411

FlightGear Aircraft Developer
Lead Programmer at the it0uchpods Design Group
Download High Quality Aircraft from it0uchpods Hangar

User avatar
SHM
Posts: 1612
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:32 pm
Location: India

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby SHM » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:29 pm

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-442854/

Russian investigators have detailed a serious loss-of-control incident last month involving a Utair Boeing 737-500 on approach to Moscow Vnukovo.

Federal air transport regulator has revealed that the aircraft was subjected to excessive pitch – up to 45° – and bank of 95° before the crew regained control.

The aircraft (VQ-BJP) had been following a precision approach to runway 06 after a service from Krasnodar on 13 October.

Rosaviatsia states that conditions were overcast, with a cloud base of just 60m, and that the aircraft was in cloud and "out of sight" of ground.

The aircraft was following an arrival pattern which involved passing the IBTER waypoint, south-west of the airport, at a height of 600m before turning right to align with the runway and descending to 400m by the final approach point.

Rosaviatsia says this turn and descent were conducted with the autopilot and autothottle engaged, the landing-gear deployed, and the flaps set at 15°. The engines were operating at 35-40% of their N1 level.

After the turn the aircraft levelled at 400m but its pitch started increasing to 10° and airspeed declined to 133-135kt. The autothrottle raised the thrust level to 75% of N1.

As the 737 approached the entry point to the glidepath, at around 130kt, the crew extended the flap setting to 30° and the autopilot disengaged.

Rosaviatsia says the engine thrust setting had increased further by this point, to 95% of N1, and the power setting – combined with an increasing pitch of 19° – resulted in the jet entering a "smooth climb", while the airspeed declined to 128kt.

The pilot's control column, it states, was pushed nose-down and the thrust levers were pulled back to a lower power setting, but without a disconnection of the autothrottle.

Pitch continued to increase to a maximum of 45° and airspeed bled away to less than 100kt, triggering a stick-shaker alert. The inquiry says the control column registered "alternating deflection" and the aircraft experienced banks of up to 95°.

After the jet reached the maximum pitch the control column was pushed forward and remained this way until the aircraft emerged from the upset.

It had climbed to a height of 750m during the event and, once the crew regained control, the aircraft executed a go-around at 350m. The second approach was uneventful.

Rosaviatsia says that, despite the excessive operating parameters, the aircraft did not breach loading and speed limits for its configuration. None of the 111 passengers and five crew members was injured and the jet was undamaged.

Investigators are still analysing the circumstances of the incident which took place in daylight at around 09:17.

User avatar
N3266G
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:20 am
Location: Hogwarts
Contact:

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby N3266G » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:45 pm

Image
Last edited by N3266G on Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
it0uchpods
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:47 am
Location: A far corner of my room.

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby it0uchpods » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:40 pm

Image

Kind Regards,
Josh
it0uchpods/WTF411

FlightGear Aircraft Developer
Lead Programmer at the it0uchpods Design Group
Download High Quality Aircraft from it0uchpods Hangar

HJ1an
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:09 am
Contact:

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby HJ1an » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:57 am

it0uchpods wrote:Boeing and Airbus are just as good and safe as each other, they just have different philosophy.


That has always been the point of the discussion here.

it0uchpods wrote:If either was unsafe, it wouldn't be certified still.


I believe this is what we refer to as the Strawman arguement. Nobody is saying if either was unsafer to the point of being unable to be certifiable. The point I'm tring to make is which approaches the philosophy better in relation to how we as humans perceive control. The Airbus does not allow ultimate control, it gives a hard limit to what their engineers deemed are the boundaries flight, in a commercial jetliner. And they have their reasons. Boeing, on the other hand, gives a 'soft limit'.

If you read up on the history of my posts, you will know that I am mostly sitting on the fence of automation and can go either side. Be it cars, planes, whatever. I personally prefer that the human driver / pilot has the last word.

For example, if I were to sit in a car, I would prefer that car to have a steering wheel, even if it drives itself. As such, Google's approach to self driving philosophy is to remove the steering wheel and make everyone no longer need a license to drive. Which, I think is a disaster in the making. Tesla's approach to self driving, even at level 2, is more in line with co-operating with how the human operates the wheel. And of course there are issues with that too, what with humans becoming complacent with their automation and then simply losing focus when they're supposed to be driving. You can draw parallels between the two.

If you read up on my post about the Asiana 214 KSFO incident, I was discussing about how Boeing's computer should actually have more of a handle on that when the pilots (all 3 of them (!)) had a lapse in judgement in the final approach resulting in people getting seriously hurt. It sucks to be in their position when humans in charge screw up so badly.


Don't be a fanboy, those people are irritating.


Nobody's being a fanboy of A vs B. We're all aviation enthusiasts here. I can draw up a bunch of issues I have with Boeing as well, but it's not relevant to this discussion.

User avatar
IAHM-COL
Posts: 5577
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:43 pm
Location: Homey, NV (KXTA) - U.S.A
Contact:

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby IAHM-COL » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:02 am

Tesla's approach to self driving, even at level 2, is more in line with co-operating with how the human operates the whee


I fully agree.
It's like the Autopilots on essence. Disengage and just fly, back to human-operating.

I drive a lot. Daily. Thus, I use the cruise-speed control of my car extensively. But I love the fact that one button, or a brake press away and I'm totally in control again, and besides the cruise control will not ignore my footing the gas pedal if needed,either.

Man/Woman in total and absolute control. That's my level of comfort for automation.
R.M.S.
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it? Probably not, because if they don’t recognise their freedoms, they’ll let their freedoms fall

HJ1an
Posts: 411
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:09 am
Contact:

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby HJ1an » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:16 am

SHM wrote:
Russian investigators have detailed a serious loss-of-control incident last month involving a Utair Boeing 737-500 on approach to Moscow Vnukovo.


Interesting news. Although it wasn't very clear on what exactly was the cause. Perhaps a new thread on this to discuss about it.

*actually, on second thoughts it probably is in line with this thread after all.

User avatar
it0uchpods
Posts: 2078
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:47 am
Location: A far corner of my room.

Re: When 'psycho' automation left this pilot powerless

Postby it0uchpods » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:57 am

I am not commenting further. For some reason, you guys do not listen/do not understand what my points are.

This entire thread is stupid in my opinion. Have a nice day.

Kind Regards,
Josh
it0uchpods/WTF411

FlightGear Aircraft Developer
Lead Programmer at the it0uchpods Design Group
Download High Quality Aircraft from it0uchpods Hangar


Return to “Real life flying”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest